Just how powerful will it be?

[JanusStorm]

There's always a good deal of debate about whether or not a console will come around that eclipses the power of the latest PC gaming technology, at least for a short while. Before the PS3 launched, it was thought that it would do just that, but it didn't quite seem to be able to reach that level.

Do you think the PS4 will be able to accomplish that, or is it even feasible to try? After all, you're comparing fluid, ever-changing and progressing technology like a PC (and also technology that costs you far more than a gaming console), with a static device that is designed well in advance of its release (and is therefore using what could be considered old technology before it even gets released), and must remain cost-effective.

While I'd like to see the most powerful PS4 possible, I can't say I really care whether or not it succeeds in eclipsing PC's in terms of gaming power. I do consider myself first and foremost a console gamer, but I'm not really biased towards consoles in the way some people are for one side or the other. I love games, and will play great ones no matter what device they're on, including PC.

What do you think? Can the PS4 show up those snooty PC-biased gamers, or is it a lost cause?

[administrator]

Good stuff Henry, thanks for posting Knowing Sony they have some of the worlds best engineers from various disciplines working on this night and day. The PS4 alpha is functioning in some secret lab / vault as slowly develop it into perfection.

[Unregistered]

well larrabee is suppossed to be "on-chip" graphics, the cell can render graphics, so a double cell on the same wafer as a 24-48 core larrabee(with a dam fast interconnect) could be run at 3.8-4.2 GHz without any extra cooling if the chip is at 32nm,reducing production costs and inter-chip latency while the clock can be uniform through out the architecture(XDR ram too).

I think I can almost guarantee the system will have 6GBs of ram too, 4GB XDR1, 2GB XDR2. It will be XDR because they are not only backwards compatible but cheaper, faster, more compact and cooler running than next gen DDR4 and GDDR5.
It will be 6GB because ps1 had 3.5MB, ps2 had 40MB, ps3 had 512MB; thats roughly a 11.428571428571428571428571428571 times increase in ram every gen from the last. It will also include a 250GB SSD at launch because they want as low latency sytem as possible to decrease online lag with the lower bandwidths of free PSN. It will also have an upgraded blu-ray, capable of reading 600GB-1TB BD at 8x-12x speed.

The over all power jump wont be as big as the ps3 was from the ps2, but it will still be able to play 2160p 3D blu rays(HVD isnt required for its gen of tv standards) or render games in either 4xAA 2160p or 4xAA 1080p in 3D. It will probably include YDL, but on a separate boot drive to keep any pirating back doors from appearing(game boot drive will remain locked), but both will be on either SSD or maybe even eDRAM, so switching between the 2 wouldn't be a hassle. It will also have a minimum of 2 USB 2.0 for Keyboard and mouse and 1 USB 3.0 for data transfer. Hopefully they add an extra 512MB of dedicated ram for the XMB during games, this will also allow you to use the XMB as an extension of YDL if they have the XMB media folders on your YD desktop(music mostly for games). They actually could release it with these specs at a much smaller loss than the ps3 at launch, and prolly do it by november 2011; they released the ps3 to drop cell, XDR, and BD costs, now they will(hopefully) release ps4 early for further dev support for the cell.

This my prediction from looking at actual projected material costs and market trends(more cores, lower clock jumps)

[DeadFire87]

Here is what I think/believe.

CPU: Could be Cell 2/Power 7 based CPU. Either way power is at least 5 times more than last generation. I say its most likely that they will use the Cell 2 line of chips even though IBM said Cell is dead end road or something in past few months. Although its still possible. IBM is still releaseing the new generation of Cell chips and making them through 2010. Sony could still use it.
GPU: PowerVR 6 GPU is rumored, Larabee is rumored. Larrabee just got the can though for PC consumer graphics card. So I don't think that is going to happen for PS4. Unless its a second generation Larrabee or something new. Intel has yet to announce its plan B plan. They said they would at 2010 sometime. PowerVR 6 if true and anything like PowerVR 5 series actually does support all the APIs that PS3, PS2, PS1 used. So backwards compatibility would be easier with it than most other cards. Now with NVIDIA and ATI rumored for next Nintendo and Next Xbox its likely that Sony will go with PowerVR series 6 GPU.
RAM: At least 2 GB XDR RAM or XDR 2 RAM. Either way not much of a change or leap in expenses. XDR 2 RAM can hit the high notes without overheating.
Disc: 8x or better Blu-Ray. Faster, bigger, and better with new format supporting up to 100 GB or higher discs.

Then of course the little things

WiMax 2(2011/2012), Bluetooth 4.0(2010), USB 3, and big HDD or SSD(200+ GB)

[Henry]

I am sorry to say that both Sony and Intel both denied the rumours that the Intel Larrabee would be included in the next console. A shame really because it has so much potential. However I doubt that it would be a good choice cost-wise and the fact that developers would infact have to learn how to program for it would make developing a game to use the Cell and the Larrabee a nightmare!
To be honest 6GBs of RAM is a ridiculous amount, considering the fact that high definition televisions only support up to 1080p and this is not likely to increase to 2160p any time soon, maybe to become the norm years from now as it costs too much. RAM usage would most likely need to double to 512MB for main system and either 512MB or 1GB for video ram. I understand where you got 6GB from but the reason they chose to have these systems have this amount of RAM is because that was all that was needed, any more is just a waste.
I agree with you about how the PS4 may use XDR2, but it would only be XDR2, not both, that would be to expensive and take up too much room on the motherboard as there would have to be 2 separate chips with room for their connections to other components. I don't understand what you mean by "It will be XDR because they are not only backwards compatible" comment.
SSDs are a very expensive technology with drives of sizes 250GB costing more than a 250GB PS3 Slim. I can not see SSDs used in any games console for many many years to come. To be honest I can only see SSds being used if there is a significant price drop and I mean significant!
Just to clear up something, system latency has very little or even NO effect on online gaming at all. Lag witnessed in online gaming is almost always to do with either your router, ISP or most importantly upload speed. If all of these are perfect then it will most definitely due to the host server which may be another console or a dedicated server lacking in bandwidth due to usage by others.
Right so the blu-ray drive: Currently the PS3 blu-ray drive will and can support multi-layered blu-ray disks up to 40 layers or 1 Terabyte. If not this can be done by a simple firmware update. Yes the speed would increase, although 2x is as fast as the 12x read speed of DVDs. An increase of rotational speed will definitely help with access times which are not good at 2x. So i reckon that up to 8x is plausible.
Now about anti-aliasing, I read a recent article comparing The Saboteur on both consoles. It seems that the Cell is perfectly capable of doing this on 1 SPE however that uses 1 SPE so that means 1 less for other things, the article then stated that an on board MSAA chip could be installed along side the Graphics core as this would be a much better solution as it would be more efficient and will have a low latency with the Graphics core. The PS3 version of The Saboteur can actually do 16x MSAA at 620p using just 1 SPE!
I believe that sony will ditch the "other Os" option due to the cost of the hyper visors, well they did it to the PS3 Slim. Also not many people at all use it.
I do not see the point of having USB 2.0 And 3.0 present together as USB 3.0 is backwards compatible with USB 2.0. SO it will be either USB 2.0 or 3.0. I changed my mind from my last post as I found out the cost of producing USB 3.0 is not much more than 2.0.
512MB of RAM just for the XMB is a joke considering that it currently uses less than 80MB now. It would use the system RAM anyway in the PS4.
Your statement "they released the ps3 to drop cell" is far from the truth, the amount of money they (IBM) spent developing the Cell is too high to warrant such a statement. I believe and many others too believe that the PS3 actually aided the development of the Cell as we know it. The cell is too good of a CPU to even consider dropping. Also the fact that once again developers would need to learn a whole new architecture would not go down well. In fact I hope that the PS4 would have a improved and faster Cell.
Have seen any Playstation 3 exclusives? They are the most graphically advanced console games ever! This would not have been possible without the Cell.
I guess they could modify the Cell so that instead of SPEs they have GPPs as these are much better for out of line calculations for example those used for advanced graphics. It would be even better if they had a mixture of both SPEs and GPPs, that would be best. Also developers will not need to learn much more than they already do to take advantage of the new Cell.

[Henry]

I have also seen many articles about that Power VR 6 series and I am impressed by what they claim it could theoretically do.
Is there a need for WiMax2 or Bluetooth 4.0? I think not.
Also IBM have stated that they can longer continue to improve on the Cell design as it would basically overheat in a matter of seconds. So they stopped it, however they also stated that if Sony wanted to use the new sell then they can.

[DeadFire87]

I agree with Henry. I do think that USB 3 and Bluetooth 4.0 will be supported though. Bluetooth 3.0 is a power hungry monster and Bluetooth 4 is much less power with same or better performance. I am certain they are a little faster than Bluetooth 2.0 as well.

There is a way they could improve on the Cell, but they would have to use this new tech thing called graphene or something. I believe they are experimenting with it. It can make CPUs or whatever is built on it go up to 500-1000 Ghz I hear. That is way to expensive and new to the market to use for a consumer product though. Might not be until another 20 years from now that we will see first CPU products with it.

[Henry]

I stated earlier that USB 3.0 could be present in the PS4 due to low manufacture costs involved and of course the speed improvement.
However Bluetooth 4.0 would most definitely not be included as it will be used for low power appliances such as mobile phones. I still do not understand why Bluetooth 3.0 would be needed, what will it be used for?

As for that Graphene technology, well it is truly amazing and I can not wait for it to become reality as this would be an amazing advancement for CPUs.

[DeadFire87]

Most likely Bluetooth would just be for headsets or controllers or similar functions. As they are wireless. PS3 controllers have Bluetooth wireless support. I think its version 2, but I don't know. X360 and Wii also have wireless controllers. I don't know if they have Bluetooth or not though.

[Henry]

The PS3 uses Bluetooth 2.0 and so does the wii, the xbox uses a type of wireless communication.

Is it really necessary for the faster data transfer via Bluetooth, but then again we really do not know if sony has any plans for Bluetooth in the future.